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'The Crisis Has Gone Too Far': Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Interview on North Korea, January 25

'Transcript of Russian Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs Alexander Losyukov Remarks on the Pervy Kanal Television Company's Vladimir Pozner Program "Vremena," Moscow, January 25, 2003', Russian Foreign Ministry Transcript, Document 203-28-01-2003, January 28.

Question: The hot topic of the past week was the developments around the DPRK's withdrawal from the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty. On Saturday US Secretary of State Colin Powell said that the US would necessarily start direct negotiations with the DPRK, I quote him: "As soon as circumstances permit." What circumstances, it is clear. This week Russia has achieved, after all, definite progress in this matter, that is, on the road of resolving this crisis situation. Alexander Prokhorovich, now Russia is suggesting a "package" proposal for solving this crisis. What is the "package" proposal, what is it all about?

Deputy Foreign Minister Alexander Losyukov: The "package" proposal is a plan which could move the parties toward a solution of the present crisis. On the one hand, this is certain principles which must be observed for this crisis to be eliminated. On the other, it is a set of small steps, gradual, which the parties could use so as to arrive at negotiations and in the course of these negotiations move on to the principles, of which I said.

Question: Could you say what is particularly important in the "package" proposal?

Losyukov: I would single out the principles which lie at the base of this agreement. First of all, these principles presume what the two parties want, in this case North Korea and the United States. The US, like all members of the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty, and they are 187 states, wants that North Korea would have no program for the production of nuclear weapons. Everyone is interested in seeing the Korean Peninsula nuclear-free, I stress, not only its north, but the south as well. For this purpose it is necessary to conduct negotiations with the North Koreans, who stress their concern at the threat which the United States poses for them. And they refer in so doing to the fact that the US has assigned them to that "axis of evil," and is threatening to strike a nuclear blow at them, which, by the way, under the NPT is impermissible. The nuclear countries promised that they would not deliver blows to nonnuclear countries which are parties to the Treaty, nor would even threaten to do so. Pyongyang in this situation demands that the United States should give the DPRK sufficiently firm security and independence guarantees. Our mission was to have a look and have a talk.

Question: So far as I know, your talks lasted six hours.

Losyukov: It was a conversation with leader Kim Chong-il, and there were also other conversations.

Question: After those six hours of talks you formed an idea how far the DPRK is prepared to go. How determined the North Koreans really are to leave the Treaty and maybe renounce the moratorium on testing their ballistic missiles. Or is this again but a game? What are your feelings after these long, difficult talks?

Losyukov: In conversation with the North Korean partners we asked the question how they perceived this situation. One very bad scenario is possible. Suppose that the confrontation between the United States and Korea is continuing. Korea does not look very well in the eyes of all the NPT signatories, it has withdrawn from the Treaty because it has abandoned these principles. And now this scenario may lead to a complication of the situation on the Korean Peninsula, even to a military conflict. The North Koreans told us about their determination to defend their sovereignty, to withstand further blackmail - these are their words - on the part of the United States. I do not think that these declarations are an empty sound. [North] Korea has some other steps in reserve which it could undertake in order to cause trouble to some countries.

Question: So far as I know, Russia is against discussing the Korean question in the United Nations Security Council.

Losyukov: We went to Korea, found out the intentions of the North Koreans. They aren't that they will go to the end. Although the North Koreans do say they will make their last stand, but probably there's no need to hasten to die, that's never late. It is necessary to find a negotiated solution. We have found out that the DPRK is ready for such a negotiated solution. The crisis has gone too far, and at its root lies the question whether North Korea will be making a nuclear bomb or not. That's what is at issue, and from what this spiral of crisis began. We in Pyongyang were told, perhaps, for the first time that they will not develop a nuclear program and do not want to do that, but as a last resort, if they continue to be leaned on, then they might think of it.

Question: With regard to Iraq it remains unclear whether there are nuclear arms there. North Korea has them for sure.

Losyukov: You know that?

Question: They themselves are saying so.

Losyukov: No, they aren't saying it.

Question: Well, say, few people doubt that.

Losyukov: Well, it's another thing.

Question: They are speaking of their nuclear potential. Why is it that the United States in this matter treats so differently Iraq and North Korea? Isn't here a double standard after all?

Losyukov: In the course of the talks in North Korea I understood that the Koreans do not think that a double standard is being applied to them, although actually it is present. The DPRK is of the view that the US firmly intends to do away with the North Korean regime and to seek changes by the use of force. Pyongyang thinks that the US is now "sorting things out" with Iraq, and then will take up North Korea. These are most sincere fears. And this is the motivation for action.

Question: And do you have such fears?

Losyukov: I do not want to engage in predictions, even less so in the international sphere, but I must say that what is happening around Iraq causes very mixed feelings in a whole array of states, not only in North Korea. Because no one can predict how the situation will develop after a possible strike.

Question: You think that a military clash is possible? A war may break out on the Korean Peninsula?

Losyukov: Yes, hypothetically, perhaps, but I don't think things will come to this, especially based on the information which we have brought from North Korea. After all, there is the possibility for dialogue between the United States and Korea.

Question: Donald Rumsfeld declared that Germany and France were "old Europe," after they had firmly said that they would not support unilateral US military action against Iraq. Is such a real split possible between old Europe and the United States around the Iraq question?

Losyukov: Strictly speaking, the split is already taking place. I do not know how far it will go, after all the United States and its West European allies are bound by old and very close ties. It is hard to say how these countries will behave in the event of a particular military development of the situation around Iraq. The Arab world's reaction to this will obviously be negative. But what real actions will be is hard to say. With North Korea the same thing is happening. There is the link here, not only because the North Koreans fear this, but because such actions motivate the DPRK to take such steps as withdrawal from the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty. And then other states might also think of why they shouldn't make a little bomb which will make them safe. This is not a good precedent. We told the North Koreans that we are firmly for the Treaty as an important instrument which helps to promote stability to be operative. If it had not existed, there would now be about 50 nuclear-weapon states. Imagine whether this would consolidate world stability or undercut it?

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