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Defence Procurement, February 2, 2006 [excerpts]
Mr. Mark Harper (Forest of Dean) (Con): On the subject of submarines, the Minister spoke of keeping a skills base in the long term and retaining the industrial capability of our submarine industry. Will he comment on the future of that capability after the construction of the Astute class has been completed in 2010? How will we maintain our skills base and what capability will be retained if there is a significant production gap between the completion of the Astute class and the potential replacement of Trident?
The nuclear deterrent has not been mentioned much, apart from in the excellent contribution by the hon. Member for Bolton, North-East (Mr. Crausby). Our position on the nuclear deterrent is unequivocal: we are committed not only to retaining the current nuclear deterrent, but replacing it when necessary. We welcome the Defence Committee's inquiry into the strategic context and timetable for decision making for the replacement of Trident. I am sure that the Minister will also welcome the start of the debate on that issue...
Mr. David Crausby (Bolton, North-East) (Lab): I strongly suspect—I am optimistic—that we will persevere with the JSF, largely because we are so committed to the project, not least given the design of our new aircraft carriers, but we have been betrayed by the denial of ITAR, and we must learn some lessons from the behaviour of the US Congress. Of course questions about the availability of the short take-off and vertical landing version must be asked and answered urgently, because the impact on the design and cost of our future aircraft carriers, which are the cornerstone of our plans, will be crucial. Most importantly, we must apply the lessons learned from that sorry episode to the transfer of technology and independence when we decide to replace our nuclear deterrent. I urge the Government to ensure that we have a full and extensive debate on the replacement of our Vanguard submarines and Trident missiles.
I have no doubt that in a world on the edge of major nuclear weapons proliferation, we have no alternative but to retain a British independent nuclear deterrent. While India and Pakistan have a deterrent, with Israel and North Korea almost certainly in possession of one, Iran desperately wanting one, and Taiwan, Saudi Arabia, South Korea, Egypt and other countries waiting in the wings, we have little choice but to retain our nuclear defensive position. We find ourselves within 15 years of the end of the 25-year hull life of the first submarine, HMS Vanguard, although I understand and accept that its service life has been extended to 2024-25. The detail of its replacement clearly must be up for debate. We must decide not only whether to replace it, but the purpose and shape of our future delivery system.
Given the limited size of Britain's nuclear stockpile, it makes obvious sense to use submarine delivery because air or ground-launched missiles cannot possibly offer us the same security as a submarine. I am encouraged by the determination expressed in the defence industrial strategy to maintain key capabilities in the UK, but I urge an early published resolution to what we intend to replace the Vanguard class with, alongside firm decisions on the acquisition of the proposed Astute class
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nuclear-powered submarines so that we can ensure, most importantly, that we retain necessary skills and design capabilities onshore...
Mr. Gerald Howarth (Aldershot) (Con): I intended to refer to Trident, but I shall leave that to my hon. Friend the Member for Forest of Dean (Mr. Harper) in his winding-up speech. I simply want to put it on record that I have not forgotten ballistic missile defence. The House should turn its attention to that at some point because the United States is developing ballistic missile defence and is convinced that that is critical for the defence of the United States and its allies. The United States is willing to make its facilities and technology available to its allies, yet the Government appear to have no interest in discussing those matters with the United States. As all of us have benefited from the umbrella of the American nuclear deterrent and the American presence on the continent of Europe during the past half century, we ought to look carefully at the offer that the United States is making to help us in that regard.
Mr. Walter: Does my hon. Friend agree that the French appear to be developing their replacement nuclear deterrent, and that it would be unacceptable for France to be the only nuclear power on the continent of Europe?
Mr. Howarth: I strongly agree with my hon. Friend. I could not have expressed that point better. Indeed, the only person who might have done so is my hon. Friend the Member for New Forest, East, who is the master in these matters...
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Mr. Peter Kilfoyle (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab): It was interesting to hear Sir Ian Blair deliver the Dimbleby lecture and discuss the need for a great and open debate on policing in this country. His speech reminded me that the Secretary of State for Defence recently said that there should be a national debate about what replaces Trident, and I want to discuss the changed circumstances and whether we need to replace Trident.
The strategic defence review reported in 1998. The House of Commons Library note on the review makes the valid remark that the SDR then was evolutionary rather than revolutionary. However, it did not face up in a radical way to many of the circumstances that it should have done, but continued the pre-existing policy.
The one thing on which I will agree with the Government is that circumstances have changed dramatically since 9/11. We are told that it was year zero and that all the rules of the game have changed. If so, we need a proper review of our overall defensive strategy.
Before the debate, I jotted down some of the things that have happened since 9/11 to change dramatically our stance, or implied stance, given our close relationship with the United States on a bilateral basis and through NATO. Our close allies, to whom, we are told, we are inextricably linked, are considering the weaponisation of space. Members on both sides of the House recently went to a briefing with the Washington-based Centre for Defence Studies on exactly how the air force is developing plans for that. The Americans have adopted the notion of full spectrum dominance, with the aspiration of dominating land, sea, air, space and cyberspace. They have taken up the notion of
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pre-emptive war, which we thought was unacceptable for the west. They have even started to moot, with some support from the previous Secretary of State for Defence, the idea that nuclear strikes on non-nuclear countries, even in a pre-emptive mode, would be feasible. There have been various withdrawals from treaties to which we all subscribed, and a failure to implement others, including those that have a direct impact on whether Trident is replaced.
We are entering a time frame in which we are considering earmarking expenditure for Trident's successor. There is ample evidence that a lot of money has been allocated in preparation for the new generation of warheads for it. Refitting has already taken place at Aldermaston.
We are in a different world and about to embark on a new course. There is no more suitable time for a complete review of what our defence objectives, strategy and priorities should be.
Dr. Julian Lewis (New Forest, East) (Con): In support of the hon. Gentleman's remarks about Trident, although from the opposite side of the argument, I remind him that in the 1980s, in the run-up to Trident, the then Conservative Government published a series of open government defence documents that aired the arguments about the decision to replace Polaris with Trident. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that if the Government are serious about starting the debate, they should begin by publishing a similar rationale, so that the public debate can get under way as to why we need a successor or, indeed, why we do not?
Mr. Kilfoyle: A future risk assessment was carried out in March 2003 to consider our changing circumstances, but unfortunately it was not taken up politically. We are in a different world. The Government have to show us what enemy, real or potential, Trident would be aimed at, and how that fits in with the emphasis on asymmetrical warfare that was mentioned in the future risk assessment. The stuff that Kitson predicted many years ago about the sort of warfare that would be endemic—I would argue, throughout the 21st century—has come to pass. We should consider that through a great national debate, not, as the current Secretary of State suggested, simply on a successor to Trident but on what our policy objectives should be.
We must not be pre-emptive in our discussions. Nothing should be excluded and nothing should necessarily be included. We should have a full and open debate analogous to that for which Ian Blair called for the police. Why do we not hold such a debate on the future role of our defence forces? That does not in any way minimise their current importance or disposition—we will all have arguments about that—but we need to look to the future with an open mind, not a closed one.
The Foreign and Commonwealth Office, not the military, should lead such a review. If we accept another old adage, that warfare is diplomacy by other means, we should establish our diplomatic priorities first and everything else should fit around that. The only way to avoid the accusation that big boys' toys win out is to hold a serious, wide-ranging and open debate on what we face in the 21st century...
I am conscious that we have only a short time, and I do not have a great deal more to say. I support a complete and open debate, before we are committed to a successor to Trident, to take account of the same circumstances that are drilled into us at every opportunity by Government spokesmen and women...
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Mr. Michael Moore (Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk) (LD): The defence White Paper, "Delivering Security in a Changing World", published in December 2003, first raised the issue of the replacement of Trident when it indicated that a decision was "likely to be required" in this Parliament. At the time, the quote might have looked as though it was tucked away in relative obscurity at the bottom of page 10, but since the election it has attracted a great deal of attention in this House and elsewhere. That is entirely understandable, as this is one of the most important debates that the country will have.
Our election manifesto committed us to work first and foremost for the elimination of nuclear weapons on a multilateral basis while retaining the United Kingdom's current minimum nuclear deterrent. We retain that position. If we are to be able to make a decision on the replacement of Trident, however, a properly informed debate is needed beforehand. There are significant questions about the timing—why now? We need information about the options being considered and the costs that go with them, assessing not only whether it is a cost that the country can afford, but the opportunity costs in the sense of what will be lost if we divert resources to that particular investment. We also need a full and frank debate about the strategic context, not just about the nature of the threat—we need to bear in
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mind that we are trying to predict 20 or 30 years on—as we also need to take account of the projected alliances of which we are members.
There are, of course, philosophical, moral and many other—including even instinctive—reasons that will be brought into the debate. We must have that debate, and to inform it I would endorse what was said by the hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton and the hon. Member for New Forest, East (Dr. Lewis) about the need for a consultation paper. In response to a question put by the hon. Member for Pendle (Mr. Prentice) on Monday, the Secretary of State indicated that he might come forward with a Green Paper on the matter, and we believe that he should. I hope that in replying to this afternoon's debate, the Under-Secretary will be able to give us a firmer commitment on that, and preferably a timetable...
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David Wright (Telford) (Lab): Clearly, we will have to make some decision in the coming months and years about whether we retain an independent nuclear deterrent. The manifesto on which I stood understandably commits us to retention of that independent deterrent, but I hope that we will have a wide-ranging debate about how appropriate that is, in the sense that the world has changed somewhat. Certainly, a replacement for Trident would be extremely expensive.
I put it clearly on the record that I would support the Government and vote for the replacement of the independent nuclear deterrent. I am not suggesting that
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we abandon it, but I am not sure that we need to go for an extremely expensive deterrent option. We must look at a raft of options. We may have to consider nuclear-tipped cruise missiles, which may be deployed from different platforms. We need a wide-ranging debate on that and to think about the money that we are spending. Certainly the concern of members of the armed forces is that, if we are to deploy troops effectively in a modern environment and meet the challenges that now face us as a country, we need to invest significantly in flexible response conventional forces.
David T.C. Davies: I welcome the hon. Gentleman's comments and I am delighted that he supports Britain having an independent nuclear deterrent. Is he pleased about the fact that a Conservative Government won elections in 1979, 1983 and 1987 when his colleagues were trying to scrap our independent nuclear deterrent?
David Wright: That is an interesting point, but times have moved on. I hope that I have made my position very clear this afternoon...
My position is clear. I support the retention of an independent nuclear deterrent, but we need to consider a range of costed options before we decide to commit.
Jeremy Corbyn: Is my hon. Friend confident that this deterrent is either a deterrent or independent?
David Wright: That is the very debate that we need to have, but I have put my position clearly on the line this afternoon. I would vote for retention. Some of the people in my local Labour party may disagree with me, but I am willing to say that I think that we need to have that independent deterrent but that we need to look at options other than Trident or a replacement for Trident, which are incredibly expensive. There must be cheaper options that we can use and divert resources into conventional forces...
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Mr. James Arbuthnot (North-East Hampshire) (Con): The Defence Committee will move on to discuss the topic that is increasingly coming up in this debate: the independent nuclear deterrent. I echo the comments made by hon. Members on both sides of the House. When the Secretary of State said that we needed a debate about that subject, he was absolutely right but, for heaven's sake, when is it going to begin? The Committee will play its part in making sure that there is a debate on that matter, but we will need to encourage the MOD to be open, as it was when Trident was first introduced. Perhaps we will need to encourage the MOD to an openness that it has previously resisted, but which would greatly strengthen its hand.
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Jeremy Corbyn: I am pleased by what the right hon. Gentleman says about the possibility of the Defence Committee undertaking an inquiry on the issue. Could it do so in combination with the Foreign Affairs Committee, so that issues of non-proliferation and disarmament could be considered? They are also part of the debate and should form part of the discussion.
Mr. Arbuthnot: I shall draw that question to the attention of my Committee. It is an interesting idea and it would not be right for me to rule it out or in. I shall leave that to the Committee in its wisdom, which is - I think - great.
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Jeremy Corbyn (Islington, North) (Lab): Turning to the important matter of this country's future nuclear policy, I am a member of the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament, as is well known, and I chair the parliamentary CND group. The arguments against the nuclear deterrent are very strong, and we need to have a serious public debate about it. I therefore welcome what a number of hon. Members have said, particularly the right hon. Member for North-East Hampshire (Mr. Arbuthnot), who chairs the Select Committee on Defence and said that it may be prepared to undertake an investigation or inquiry into the matter. I repeat what I said in my intervention, when he kindly gave way to me. The Defence Committee ought to be joined by the Select Committee on Foreign Affairs. The Defence Committee has responsibility for defence matters, but it does not have responsibility for disarmament policy nor, indeed, for the operation of the non-proliferation treaty, which is clearly relevant.
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I therefore hope that that suggestion will be considered seriously by both Committees, because it would make an important contribution to the public debate.
The hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Kilfoyle) talked about US strategy, which includes full-spectrum dominance and thus the development of a new generation of nuclear weapons. Indeed, there are many signs that the US is already spending very large sums of money on preparing for a post-Trident world, but that does not mean that the UK should do so. We must consider two things: first, our existing expenditure; and, secondly, what happens afterwards. I recently asked the Secretary of State about the cost of running AWE Aldermaston and capital investment in the base. I was astonished to learn that over the past five years, AWE Aldermaston has cost £1.5 billion of the defence budget, of which almost £100 million has been spent on capital investment in the past year. I would be interested to know what that capital investment was. I hope the money was not spent on preparation for, or manufacture of, a new generation of nuclear weapons to succeed Trident. We have been told, and I accept that we were told in good faith, that no decision has been made on a post-Trident world through the refurbishment of Trident or some new nuclear weapons system.
It is worth thinking for a moment about the costs involved. They are huge, as my hon. Friend the Member for Telford (David Wright) pointed out. The original cost of Trident was £12.52 billion and the annual running costs are about £1.5 billion. Trident's lifespan was predicted to be 30 years. The Trident refit that is taking place at Devonport docks in Plymouth was estimated in 1997 to cost £650 million, but it is already running at almost £1 billion—about a third more than the original estimate. It is not a cheap system, even with the current refit. A replacement of Trident would cost around £25 billion. There is a great deal else that one could spend such a sum on—not least, it would allow us to meet the UN millennium development goals every year for the next six years. It is important that in the debate we throw all these factors into the equation.
The wider question is how secure the world is with nuclear weapons or with Trident. If we replace Trident nuclear missiles, we will be running contrary to the rule and expectation of the non-proliferation treaty. Although it puts the five declared nuclear weapons states in a special position, it does not allow them to develop new generations of nuclear weapons while at the same time saying that the signatory nations to the non-proliferation treaty cannot develop their own nuclear weapons. If we do not want proliferation, a good example must be set by the five declared nuclear weapons states. I hope the UK does not develop a new generation of nuclear weapons. I do not believe them to bring security. I believe them to be immoral and dangerous, and to encourage others to develop nuclear weapons.
The Secretary of State said that there must be a public debate on the matter. We all welcome that. It would be helpful if, in his reply, he could set out the options, the cost of the existing system, the cost of replacement and the legal opinion with respect to the non-proliferation treaty, so that there can be a serious, informed public
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debate about it. That debate will take place anyway in the public arena. It is extremely important that it also takes place in the Chamber and in the Committees of the House.
We are debating defence. The world is obviously not a simple or a stable place. We must ask ourselves whether such fantastic levels of expenditure on defence make the world a safer place, or whether we would be better off spending a little more energy addressing issues of inequality, poverty and instability around the world, rather than assuming that there is a military solution to every problem. I say that because I want to see a more peaceful world, as does the entire House, I am sure. The possession or development of nuclear weapons does not bring that about...
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Mr. James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con): The cold war demonstrated as much. Our independent nuclear deterrent won the cold war for us. For some 20 years, the Labour party wanted to get rid of it. If that had happened, the Russians and communism would have won. We would not be where we are today if we had done what Labour wanted and disarmed, and the same is true now. We cannot defeat al-Qaeda or international terrorism by laying down our arms, so we need a sensible military deterrence to sort out the terrorist threat...
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Mr. Andrew Robathan (Blaby) (Con): A great many Members—the hon. Members for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Kilfoyle), for Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk (Mr. Moore), for Telford (David Wright), for Islington, North (Jeremy Corbyn), my hon. Friends the Members for New Forest, East (Dr. Lewis) and for Monmouth (David T.C. Davies) and my right hon. Friend the Member for North-East Hampshire (Mr. Arbuthnot)—raised the question of a full-scale
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debate and consultation on the future of the nuclear deterrent. We know, because the Government have told us, that a decision will be made in this Parliament about a replacement for Trident. The Government should, as the Conservatives did in the 1970s when Trident was being discussed, publish papers stating the facts and the arguments for and against, so that we can have an informed debate...
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Mr. Don Touhig): The Chairman of the Defence Committee, the right hon. Member for North-East Hampshire (Mr. Arbuthnot), has an important role. His Committee scrutinises on our behalf what we do day-to-day in the Ministry of Defence. I pay tribute to him and his Committee for their hard work. He mentioned a debate about Trident. I am sure that when my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State reads Hansard tomorrow he will take note of the right hon. Gentleman's remarks, and if there is a wide-ranging debate I have no doubt that my right hon. Friend will welcome it.
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Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con): Does my hon. Friend agree that it is about time that the Government made plain their intention in principle and in practice to make clearer the announcements on a replacement for Trident, given the threats from places such as Iran? ...
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The Minister for the Middle East (Dr. Kim Howells): The hon. Member for The Wrekin (Mark Pritchard) asked whether we would replace Trident. I laughed at the very idea that I would say such a thing in this Room. If, Iran did develop a nuclear weapon, however, it would throw the whole issue of how we get rid of our nuclear stocks—how we demilitarise—back into the melting pot. The issue poses enormous challenges to everyone.
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Jeremy Corbyn: I want to conclude with a point that I made during an intervention on the Minister, and that is the issue of the non-proliferation treaty review conference that is going on in New York at present. That was a landmark treaty achieved during the cold war in which we talked clearly about the long-term proposal for the five declared nuclear weapon states to disarm. It has to be welcome; it has to be a good thing. That was its long-term objective. Because of the existence of that treaty, it has been possible to say firmly to other countries that were thinking of developing nuclear weapons that they should not do so. It has had considerable effect. There are some estimates that as many as 25 countries would have developed nuclear weapons by now had it not been for that treaty.
But to achieve success requires a clear statement by the Government. I welcome the fact that the Queen's Speech said nothing about developing a new generation of nuclear weapons. I wish that it had said that there would be no new generation of nuclear weapons, but at least by not saying the opposite it gives that possibility.
I have received reports about the NPT conference-I must declare that I am a member of the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament and that I have been a member of CND for as long as I have been a member of the Labour party, which is since the age of 16-and I shall quote from the comprehensive overview of the situation released by the director general of the International Atomic Energy Agency, Mohamed el-Baradei:
"as long as some countries place strategic reliance on nuclear weapons as a deterrent, other countries will emulate them"
and
"we cannot delude ourselves into thinking otherwise".
We would do well to recognise Mohamed el-Baradei's wise words.
I have received a report about the unfortunate news from New York:
"The US has refused to accept the inclusion of any reference to both the 1995 and 2000 NPT Review Conference. This means reneging on a significant step made at the 2000 Conference when the UK and the four other declared nuclear weapons states gave an 'unequivocal undertaking to work toward the total elimination of their nuclear weapons' and the 13-point practical step agreement to achieve that goal".
When the BBC's "Newsnight" programme interviewed the Prime Minister, I was disturbed to hear him say that we must retain our nuclear deterrent and that we have had an independent nuclear deterrent for a long time. I question the use of the word, "independent", in respect of the British nuclear deterrent, but we clearly possess nuclear weapons. We should strongly support the NPT process and recognise that Trident must not be replaced by a new generation of nuclear weapons. As Trident ceases to be operational, we should stop living with nuclear weapons. Nuclear
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weapons have not brought peace to the world, because they take up a lot of resources and present the danger of proliferation.
The Government's approach to Iran, which involves a troika talking to the Iranian regime, is welcome and helpful, and I hope that it continues. If we transmit positive signals through our participation in the NPT review conference, it will help to bring about the possibility of wider nuclear disarmament, which we all want to achieve. Many tens of thousands died at Hiroshima and Nagasaki from the only use of nuclear weapons in wartime. Surely we can take a step forward on the 60th anniversary of those events by saying that we will get rid of nuclear weapons worldwide and by setting the example of getting rid of ours.
This debate comes at a very important time. We live in a world in which serious wars, which are currently occurring in Iraq, Colombia and the Congo, are a danger. Wars occur because of competition for resources, poverty, nationalism and other reasons. We cannot say that we live in a world of peace, when, as I have said, so many people live in desperate poverty. We live in one of the richest countries in the world, and surely it is up to us to do all that we can to eliminate poverty around the world, to promote peace through disarmament and to recognise the need for justice. We should bequeath those changes to future generations, rather than bringing up a new generation on a diet of weapons of mass destruction, war and conflict.
John Reid: We will have big decisions to make quite apart from those on Iraq, Afghanistan and other areas of operational disposition of our troops. One was raised by my hon. Friends the Members for Islington, North and for Sunderland, South, and they were visibly and helpfully assisted by the right hon. and learned Member for Devizes. I refer to Trident and the continuation of our nuclear deterrent. I think that we have been pretty open about that. The defence White Paper in 2003 indicated clearly that it was likely that decisions on whether to replace Trident would be needed during this Parliament and that we were taking steps to keep options open until a decision point was reached, and that continues to be the case.
It would be irresponsible for me to speculate from the Dispatch Box within days of arriving in my position about exactly what decisions might be needed, or exactly when they will be needed. However, I shall keep
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the House informed about the matter, as we have tried to do in the past. As I have been asked questions today, I confirm to the House that no decisions on any replacement have been taken in principle or otherwise. However, it is likely that such decisions will have to be taken during the course of this Parliament.
Mr. Mullin: Will my right hon. Friend give me an assurance that before any irreversible decisions are taken, proper discussions will take place in the House about the merits of a new generation of nuclear weapons?
John Reid: My hon. Friend has answered that question himself by raising the matter several times during today's debate. I have no doubt that a matter discussed in the first debate in the House will be raised continually. Obviously the Government will listen to hon. Members on both sides of the House before taking the decision that we are elected to make in the course of discharging our responsibilities. I do not think that I can be more specific than that because the decisions that must be taken and the exact time frame in which that must happen are not yet clear.
Mr. Mullin: I want to avoid the situation that occurred in the latter days of Mr. Callaghan's Government, when a decision was taken without most of the Cabinet or the House being informed. Labour Members discovered that a decision had been taken only when Tory Defence Ministers revealed some years later that a decision had been taken under the Callaghan Government. We do not want that to happen again, but I am sure that it will not, will it?
John Reid: Not if it is up to my hon. Friend or me. Without going into specifics, I can tell him that we do not regard the development of the Chevaline project as a role model for decision making by this Government.
Jeremy Corbyn: I congratulate the Secretary of State on his new appointment. He will no doubt have heard earlier contributions to the debate. I specifically raised the non-proliferation treaty conference in New York that is going on at present. Will he give us some indication of whether the UK Government's position is to support a reiteration that there should be no new nuclear weapons and the ultimate removal of all nuclear weapons, including those held by the five declared nuclear weapon states?
John Reid: Our policy has not changed on either of those issues. Of course we would all like a world in which there were no threats and thus no requirement to develop a response to threats. However, we live in a world in which there are such threats. I shall deal with this matter in detail at a later stage, but we must decide the best way of handling our response to them. We have tried to do that over the years and our policy remains exactly what it has been on nuclear weapons and deterrents, although of course we must deal with the changing nature of threats. I give my hon. Friend the assurance that I think he and his colleagues want: as the discussion develops, we will try to keep the House informed in a way that will satisfy hon. Members.
Sir Menzies Campbell: The Secretary of State will remember, as I do, endless debates provoked by the then
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Conservative Government in an attempt to embarrass the Labour Opposition about whether the fourth Trident submarine should be constructed at Barrow-in-Furness. Those debates were, frankly, hopeless as a basis for discussing nuclear policy. He knows, too, that nuclear policy is arcane and sometimes pretty difficult to grasp. Will he give an undertaking that when allowing the House to reach what will be a significant decision, he will, without breaching secrets or anything of that kind, make as much professional information as possible available to hon. Members? Will he assure us that there will be no question of people scrambling to find information that is available to Ministers, but no one else?
John Reid: Let me say two things. First, the idea that a decision of that nature could be taken in all contexts without an open and continual discussion in this House and elsewhere, including the United States, is not realistic. I think that it will be open and continual. Of course, when it comes to nuclear deterrence and other matters relating to this country's security, it is not possible to put everything into the public domain. We have found from our experience over the past few years that when we try to do that and ensure that the sanctity of some of the information is retained, it is easy for people to accuse us of misrepresenting the information that is in the public domain. It is a continual challenge, but I think that the process will be much more open than people perhaps think.
Secondly, the great debate on the fourth Trident submarine and so on took place in an entirely different context. The right hon. and learned Member for North-East Fife will remember that it took place in the context of a Labour party that was accused of having a defence policy that was basically "Surrender. Hands up." Those days are long gone, just as the days when Labour was regarded as a party of economic incompetence and the Tories were regarded as a party of economic competence and as strong on defence have gone.
We know what the contrast is now. We introduced a £3.7 billion increase in defence expenditure under my predecessor, now the Leader of the House. We know that we have reconfigured the British armed forces, with all their failings, in the strategic defence review, which was lauded internationally as well as here. We know that during the election there was no debate whatsoever on defence-[Interruption.] Perhaps the right hon. and learned Member for Devizes can contain himself for a second while I finish.
People contrast that record with the 29 per cent. cut in real terms in defence expenditure that took place under the previous Government in the terrible days running up to 1997 and with the flip-flopping over Iraq, when the defence policy of the Leader of the Opposition appeared to be determined by him wetting his finger and sticking it in the air to see which way popular opinion was going. The whole context has changed. There is a degree of confidence in the Government's posture on defence. I can give a degree of confidence to my colleagues that we will, as part of a Government who are
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confident in our willingness and ability to defend our country, discuss such matters a little more openly than might otherwise have been the case.
Jeremy Corbyn: Will the Secretary of State give way?
John Reid: I will, but then I must make progress.
Jeremy Corbyn: It is kind of the Secretary of State to give way a second time.
In the context of what we have said about the non-proliferation treaty and my right hon. Friend's response to the questions asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Sunderland, South (Mr. Mullin), will he confirm that there is no preparation at the Atomic Weapons Establishment Aldermaston for the construction of a facility to make any new nuclear weapons, free-fall bombs or anything similar, and that all decisions will be in the open before such construction work begins?
John Reid: My hon. Friend posits something that envisages a qualitative and quantifiable watershed between the maintenance of facilities, whereby they are updated and rendered continually safe so that our existing nuclear deterrent is made more effective, and, a new weapon. The world does not work like that any more than one day we will have capitalism and the next we will have socialism, but my hon. Friend and I have argued about that as well. I do not think that the world develops like that.
The reality is that the preparations necessary to maintain a nuclear deterrent in a safe condition, which is constantly updated to meet new threats in terms of accuracy and new technology, are an integral part of what might become-I do not say will become-one possible avenue for one of the many alternatives that we might have to consider if are going to update, replace or modernise our nuclear deterrent. That is as honest an answer as I can give to my hon. Friend. In the real world, there is no such complete gap.
© 2005 The Acronym Institute.